藝
術
家
訪
談
側
寫
用『藝術』讓彼此更相愛
Making much love by the Arts
採訪對象 :蒂摩爾古薪舞集 總監 路之·瑪迪霖
INTERVIEWEE : TJIMUR DANCE THEATER ARTISTIC DIRECTOR - LJUZEM MADILJIN
INTERVIEWEE : TJIMUR DANCE THEATER ARTISTIC DIRECTOR - LJUZEM MADILJIN
一直以來都為了舞團的進步及拓展舞團視野為宗旨的路之老師,總是盡心盡力跑 在前頭做好萬全的準備,為了編舞家和舞者們能夠更盡情的發揮,不知道這兩年的計 畫中,老師是否滿意或認為還有需要改進的地方呢?我們選好了『厥美區』(植物-蕨 類背景佈置的地方)做採訪,讓一切更近於大自然,讓老師能夠輕鬆地接受採訪。
一、請問路之老師,這是第二年與Kaishki舞團合作,你認為第二年有什麼不一 樣或進步,又有什麼想跟大家分享的?
我一直都認為國際交流就像談戀愛一樣,剛開始一定是彼此都無法卸下 武裝,還在互相試探,但很幸運得我們感受到彼此是對對方很好感的,我們很 自然地卸下武裝,輕鬆的與彼此相處,也因為這樣的好感,讓我們的交流工作 都能深深感受到彼此的積極度,當然我也曾擔心,我們雖有好感,但可能碰撞 不出什麼火花,但經過第一年的經驗,我們發現對彼此是有愛的,而因為這樣 的愛意,讓我們捨不得放棄這樣的交流,也非常期待在第二年,我們能延續這 樣的愛,去發展出在創作、演出更多的可能性,同時發掘彼此更深層的文化知 識、舞蹈知識。 果然,在第二年的交流中,我們的愛意並沒有減少,可能也因為一段時間 的沈靜,當我們再次相遇,這樣的激情是更美妙、更動人的,我們彼此有了 更多的對話,也因為第一年的經驗,事前的準備跟規劃,讓工作上非常順利 、愉快,我也在第二年發現了,因為彼此的愛、彼此的全然信任,我們雙方 編舞家和舞者們都有了很大的進步,應該說是「突破」,以大膽的方式呈現 今年的作品,(此時老師突然停頓,思考了一下,提到合作中的困境)路之 老師說到,我們合作期間,並不是看似都如此順利,也不是都沒有困境,而 是回到頭來,也就因為我們彼此很信任對方,花了很多的時間去認識、了解 彼此,最重要的是,我們在其中學會尊重彼此,將彼此的不一樣轉化成養份 ,也因為太喜歡彼此,我們總是全心全意的去試著找出有趣得火花,進而才 能創作出今年如此驚人、突破的作品。
二、 對於透過這樣的交流,你感受最深的感觸是什麼呢?
在交流之前,其實我印度是非常陌生,也因為被報章媒體影響,認 為印度不會是個太友善、舒適的環境,但我們真的很幸運有文化部的支 持,除了在藝術交流,我們也能這樣的計畫去認識不一樣的世界,抵達 印度時,由於高度人口密度加上交通並無特別管制,心裡總是忐忑不安 ,擔心接下來的交通與生活,但與Kaishiki團員們碰面後,這一切的不 安都消失了,我們發現女性在印度並不是如此沒地位,我們接受的訊息 實在太不確實了,然而,經過一天一天的相處,在用舞蹈交流的過程中 ,因為印度古典舞久遠的歷史文化而深深的感動,也驚覺對於這個世界 ,我們實在太渺小了,印度古典舞小從一個眼神、一個指尖,大到精神 的意義、宇宙的奧妙,都有故事都有需要我們去探索的精神,這樣的脈 絡Daksha ji很尊敬也確實傳承下去,這樣的精神是我想學習的,同時, 我也正在做統整『排灣族當代肢體』的脈絡。 還有,台灣觀眾對於印度古典舞表演的呈現和印度藝術表演者對於排 灣族當代肢體的看法,與其說看法,不如說是大開眼界,當初實在不了解 真的印度古典舞,能夠如此優雅、富有靈性,但這兩年,我真的深深感受 到印度古典深層的文化意義和精神。
三、 老師對於第三年交流的期望?
相較第一、二年,還會做什麼樣的突破呢? 重複著我們是在談戀愛,所以愛意目前沒有退燒前,當然我們彼此都非常期 待第三年,邊做第二年的音樂肢體實驗時,同時我們也一直都丟出對第三年交 流的期望跟畫面,這兩年,因為彼此全然的信任跟喜歡,我們創作出很多很棒 的作品,雖然這兩年我們都很幸運有文化部的支持,相較於印度方式沒有這樣 的資源,但在第三年,我們釋放出野心,希望能讓台灣、印度的觀眾能感受到 更專業、更完整的演出,藉此能有夠多經濟上的資源,還有專業場地的協助, 以呈現這三年來得交流成果。我想前進國家劇院或能在台灣、印度更多的城市 演出將是我們明年最大、最困難也是必須突破的點。
結束了訪談,老師交代了明年計畫時程,馬不停蹄持續為了大家而努力,期望明年的 交流計畫能夠更完整,讓全世界看見台灣與印度的深層藝術文化對話。
一、請問路之老師,這是第二年與Kaishki舞團合作,你認為第二年有什麼不一 樣或進步,又有什麼想跟大家分享的?
我一直都認為國際交流就像談戀愛一樣,剛開始一定是彼此都無法卸下 武裝,還在互相試探,但很幸運得我們感受到彼此是對對方很好感的,我們很 自然地卸下武裝,輕鬆的與彼此相處,也因為這樣的好感,讓我們的交流工作 都能深深感受到彼此的積極度,當然我也曾擔心,我們雖有好感,但可能碰撞 不出什麼火花,但經過第一年的經驗,我們發現對彼此是有愛的,而因為這樣 的愛意,讓我們捨不得放棄這樣的交流,也非常期待在第二年,我們能延續這 樣的愛,去發展出在創作、演出更多的可能性,同時發掘彼此更深層的文化知 識、舞蹈知識。 果然,在第二年的交流中,我們的愛意並沒有減少,可能也因為一段時間 的沈靜,當我們再次相遇,這樣的激情是更美妙、更動人的,我們彼此有了 更多的對話,也因為第一年的經驗,事前的準備跟規劃,讓工作上非常順利 、愉快,我也在第二年發現了,因為彼此的愛、彼此的全然信任,我們雙方 編舞家和舞者們都有了很大的進步,應該說是「突破」,以大膽的方式呈現 今年的作品,(此時老師突然停頓,思考了一下,提到合作中的困境)路之 老師說到,我們合作期間,並不是看似都如此順利,也不是都沒有困境,而 是回到頭來,也就因為我們彼此很信任對方,花了很多的時間去認識、了解 彼此,最重要的是,我們在其中學會尊重彼此,將彼此的不一樣轉化成養份 ,也因為太喜歡彼此,我們總是全心全意的去試著找出有趣得火花,進而才 能創作出今年如此驚人、突破的作品。
二、 對於透過這樣的交流,你感受最深的感觸是什麼呢?
在交流之前,其實我印度是非常陌生,也因為被報章媒體影響,認 為印度不會是個太友善、舒適的環境,但我們真的很幸運有文化部的支 持,除了在藝術交流,我們也能這樣的計畫去認識不一樣的世界,抵達 印度時,由於高度人口密度加上交通並無特別管制,心裡總是忐忑不安 ,擔心接下來的交通與生活,但與Kaishiki團員們碰面後,這一切的不 安都消失了,我們發現女性在印度並不是如此沒地位,我們接受的訊息 實在太不確實了,然而,經過一天一天的相處,在用舞蹈交流的過程中 ,因為印度古典舞久遠的歷史文化而深深的感動,也驚覺對於這個世界 ,我們實在太渺小了,印度古典舞小從一個眼神、一個指尖,大到精神 的意義、宇宙的奧妙,都有故事都有需要我們去探索的精神,這樣的脈 絡Daksha ji很尊敬也確實傳承下去,這樣的精神是我想學習的,同時, 我也正在做統整『排灣族當代肢體』的脈絡。 還有,台灣觀眾對於印度古典舞表演的呈現和印度藝術表演者對於排 灣族當代肢體的看法,與其說看法,不如說是大開眼界,當初實在不了解 真的印度古典舞,能夠如此優雅、富有靈性,但這兩年,我真的深深感受 到印度古典深層的文化意義和精神。
三、 老師對於第三年交流的期望?
相較第一、二年,還會做什麼樣的突破呢? 重複著我們是在談戀愛,所以愛意目前沒有退燒前,當然我們彼此都非常期 待第三年,邊做第二年的音樂肢體實驗時,同時我們也一直都丟出對第三年交 流的期望跟畫面,這兩年,因為彼此全然的信任跟喜歡,我們創作出很多很棒 的作品,雖然這兩年我們都很幸運有文化部的支持,相較於印度方式沒有這樣 的資源,但在第三年,我們釋放出野心,希望能讓台灣、印度的觀眾能感受到 更專業、更完整的演出,藉此能有夠多經濟上的資源,還有專業場地的協助, 以呈現這三年來得交流成果。我想前進國家劇院或能在台灣、印度更多的城市 演出將是我們明年最大、最困難也是必須突破的點。
結束了訪談,老師交代了明年計畫時程,馬不停蹄持續為了大家而努力,期望明年的 交流計畫能夠更完整,讓全世界看見台灣與印度的深層藝術文化對話。
Director Ljuzem has always seen the progression of the company and expanding the views of the company as the goals and has always been on the front line making all the preparation required so that the choreographers and dancers could bring out their best. We wondered if the director was satisfied with the initiatives in these two years and if there was anything that needed to be improved. We chose to interview the director in the "beautiful fern area" (a place with a fern background), a place closer to the nature, so that the director could be more relaxed during the interview.
1. The question to Director Ljuzem, this is the second year for the cooperation with the Kaishiki company. In your opinion, what is different in the second year? Is there any progression? Or is there anything you want to share?
I have always believed that doing international exchange is like falling in love. At first, both parties cannot lower their defenses and are sounding each other out. Luckily, we felt friendliness from each other and we just lowered our defenses naturally and got along with each other easily. Because of this favorable impression, during the exchange, we could deeply feel each other’s vigorousness. Of course, we would worry that even though the impression was good, we still couldn’t spark any creativity. However, with the experience from the first year, we knew that there was love between us. Because of this love, we were reluctant to give up this kind of exchange. Hopefully, in the second year, we would extend this love to develop more possibilities in creation and performance, while discovering deeper knowledge in culture and dance from each other.
As expected, in the second-year exchange, our love was no less. And probably after a period of settling, when we met once again, the passion was even more wonderful and moving. We had more conversations. With the experiences regarding preparations and planning from the first year, we worked together in a smooth and joyous way. I also found that, in the second year, because of our love for and trust in each other, the choreographers and dancers from both dance companies had made a lot of improvements, or even “breakthroughs”. This year our work was presented in a bolder way. (At this moment, the director paused for a while and talked about the difficulties encountered during the collaboration.) Director Ljuzem said that the collaboration wasn’t always so smooth and wasn’t without obstacles. The thing was that throughout the process we trusted each other and spent a lot of time to get to know each other. The most important of all was we learned to respect each other and turn our differences into nutrition. Because we liked each other too much, we always tried whole-heartedly to find interesting sparks. This was why we could come up with such an amazing and revolutionary work this year.
2. What was your strongest feeling about this exchange?
Before the exchange, I was not familiar with India at all. Under the influences of newspapers and media, I had thought that India was not a friendly or comfortable place. However, we were lucky to have the support from the Ministry of Culture. Besides the art exchange, this initiative also allowed us to see a different world. When we arrived at India, we were uneasy because of the high population density and traffic without regulations. We worried about the transportation and living conditions we were about to face. Yet, when we met the Kaishiki members, all the anxiety was gone. We realized that the social status of females in India wasn’t as low as we thought it would be. The information we had received was just not true. After days we spent together, we were deeply moved by the long history and culture of the Indian classical dance in the process of dance exchange. And we suddenly realized that we were so small in this world. In the Indian classical dance, there were stories behind everything from a look, a fingertip, to a spiritual meaning, a secret of the universe for us to explore. Daksha ji respected this context and worked hard to pass it on. I wanted to learn from her spirit and now I am also organizing the context for the “Paiwan contemporary limb movements”.
Moreover, the Taiwanese audience’s horizons were widened after seeing the Indian classical dance performances and these Indian art performers’ views on the Paiwan contemporary limb movements. Back then we really didn’t know anything about Indian classical dance. We didn’t expect it to be so graceful and spiritual. However, during these two years, I had truly perceived the deeper meaning and spirit of the Indian traditions.
3. What is your expectation on the exchange in the third year? Compared to the exchanges in the first two years, will there be any breakthroughs?
As I said, we were like being in love. So, before our love fades away, we all have high hopes for the third year. While doing some music and limb movement experiments in the second year, we also talked about our expectations for the exchange in the third year and descript the images in our minds. During these two years, we had come up with a lot of great works based on our complete trust and love for each other. We were lucky to have the support from the Ministry of Culture for two years. In comparison, there was no resource like this in India. We have great ambitions for the third year as we hope to offer audience in Taiwan and India more professional and complete performances. Hopefully we can thus receive more financial resources and offers from professional venues to present the achievements of the exchanges during these three years. In my opinion, the biggest challenge for us next year is to shoot for the opportunity to perform in the National Theater and more cities in Taiwan and India. And we have to make some breakthroughs to achieve this high goal.
The interview was over. The director showed us the schedule for next year. She will keep on fighting for everybody. Hopefully, the exchange initiative next year will be more complete, so that the whole world can see the depth conversations of art and culture between Taiwan and India.
1. The question to Director Ljuzem, this is the second year for the cooperation with the Kaishiki company. In your opinion, what is different in the second year? Is there any progression? Or is there anything you want to share?
I have always believed that doing international exchange is like falling in love. At first, both parties cannot lower their defenses and are sounding each other out. Luckily, we felt friendliness from each other and we just lowered our defenses naturally and got along with each other easily. Because of this favorable impression, during the exchange, we could deeply feel each other’s vigorousness. Of course, we would worry that even though the impression was good, we still couldn’t spark any creativity. However, with the experience from the first year, we knew that there was love between us. Because of this love, we were reluctant to give up this kind of exchange. Hopefully, in the second year, we would extend this love to develop more possibilities in creation and performance, while discovering deeper knowledge in culture and dance from each other.
As expected, in the second-year exchange, our love was no less. And probably after a period of settling, when we met once again, the passion was even more wonderful and moving. We had more conversations. With the experiences regarding preparations and planning from the first year, we worked together in a smooth and joyous way. I also found that, in the second year, because of our love for and trust in each other, the choreographers and dancers from both dance companies had made a lot of improvements, or even “breakthroughs”. This year our work was presented in a bolder way. (At this moment, the director paused for a while and talked about the difficulties encountered during the collaboration.) Director Ljuzem said that the collaboration wasn’t always so smooth and wasn’t without obstacles. The thing was that throughout the process we trusted each other and spent a lot of time to get to know each other. The most important of all was we learned to respect each other and turn our differences into nutrition. Because we liked each other too much, we always tried whole-heartedly to find interesting sparks. This was why we could come up with such an amazing and revolutionary work this year.
2. What was your strongest feeling about this exchange?
Before the exchange, I was not familiar with India at all. Under the influences of newspapers and media, I had thought that India was not a friendly or comfortable place. However, we were lucky to have the support from the Ministry of Culture. Besides the art exchange, this initiative also allowed us to see a different world. When we arrived at India, we were uneasy because of the high population density and traffic without regulations. We worried about the transportation and living conditions we were about to face. Yet, when we met the Kaishiki members, all the anxiety was gone. We realized that the social status of females in India wasn’t as low as we thought it would be. The information we had received was just not true. After days we spent together, we were deeply moved by the long history and culture of the Indian classical dance in the process of dance exchange. And we suddenly realized that we were so small in this world. In the Indian classical dance, there were stories behind everything from a look, a fingertip, to a spiritual meaning, a secret of the universe for us to explore. Daksha ji respected this context and worked hard to pass it on. I wanted to learn from her spirit and now I am also organizing the context for the “Paiwan contemporary limb movements”.
Moreover, the Taiwanese audience’s horizons were widened after seeing the Indian classical dance performances and these Indian art performers’ views on the Paiwan contemporary limb movements. Back then we really didn’t know anything about Indian classical dance. We didn’t expect it to be so graceful and spiritual. However, during these two years, I had truly perceived the deeper meaning and spirit of the Indian traditions.
3. What is your expectation on the exchange in the third year? Compared to the exchanges in the first two years, will there be any breakthroughs?
As I said, we were like being in love. So, before our love fades away, we all have high hopes for the third year. While doing some music and limb movement experiments in the second year, we also talked about our expectations for the exchange in the third year and descript the images in our minds. During these two years, we had come up with a lot of great works based on our complete trust and love for each other. We were lucky to have the support from the Ministry of Culture for two years. In comparison, there was no resource like this in India. We have great ambitions for the third year as we hope to offer audience in Taiwan and India more professional and complete performances. Hopefully we can thus receive more financial resources and offers from professional venues to present the achievements of the exchanges during these three years. In my opinion, the biggest challenge for us next year is to shoot for the opportunity to perform in the National Theater and more cities in Taiwan and India. And we have to make some breakthroughs to achieve this high goal.
The interview was over. The director showed us the schedule for next year. She will keep on fighting for everybody. Hopefully, the exchange initiative next year will be more complete, so that the whole world can see the depth conversations of art and culture between Taiwan and India.